God promoting idol worshipping ??!!

[hupo]

Big question floats up around Exodus 25   

In this chapter God is telling Moses how to build the most sacred place for the people of Israel
( Exo 25:22  There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are on the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you about all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel. )

(All this in Exo 25:10 to  Exo 25:22)

This is the holiest place! The place that God will talk with His people!
and God is telling them to build the lid of the ark (the mercy seat) with two pretty big pure gold status!
(They have to be pretty big to (Exo 25:20) .... overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings )

This is the same God that started a whole new people around the basic concept of monotheism, several generations back.
This is the same God that gave the commandment Exo 20:4  "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
This is the God who is about to get pretty mad at His people for creating a golden calf, and worshiping it! (Exo 32)

What is going on here ??!!
How would you "process" this paradox?   Anyone?

David

[Ruth Ann]

I think it has to do with worship. The Israelites didn't 'worship' the angels.

And I think God knew that humans needed 'something' to remind them of where He Himself sat! Where He would meet them, in PERSON!

Besides, the Mercy Seat was behind the curtain. The people didn't see it, did they? Only the High Priest did.

(I think the High Priest was a type of Christ. He interceded for the people as Jesus Christ does for us).

Ok, you can correct me now. 

[hupo]

Besides, the Mercy Seat was behind the curtain. The people didn't see it, did they? Only the High Priest did.

Well, not exactly. There were 3 times a year where all went up on a kind of pilgrimage to Jerusalem
At that time the ark was revealed to the public

... That is, if my memory has not failed me ... I mean, No!  I wasn't there personally....but.... oh...whatever 

David

[Ruth Ann]

I didn't know that the Mercy Seat was viewed by the pilgrims! I knew they went 'up' to Jerusalem...

Thanks.

Is there scripture for that? I'm sure there is...

[a2jgrammy]

I too think is was about worship.

Coming from Egypt they were use to seeing 'something' to worship.

They made the 'golden calf' and that didn't work.

They had the 'cloud by day and the fire by night', but that still wasn't enough for them .

They needed something 'material' , something they could 'make' and see or know it was where God sat.

They needed something so "Holy" for God, yet be movable to where ever they were going. 

[hupo]

They needed something 'material' , something they could 'make' and see or know it was where God sat.

They needed something so "Holy" for God, yet be movable to where ever they were going. 

Well, A golden calf would be good for that, no?

What I was wondering was.... Why are two golden statues of Cheruvim OK and a golden calf isn't?
After all they weren't supposed to worship angels, and that is what Chruvim are.

There has to be some logical or at least a spiritual explanation somewhere

David

[hupo]

I didn't know that the Mercy Seat was viewed by the pilgrims! I knew they went 'up' to Jerusalem...

Thanks.

Is there scripture for that? I'm sure there is...

I don't know, which doesn't mean there isn't but it could also be a later rabbinical interpretation

There was this talk about it and that is what they brought as the "facts"
On a personal level, I believe in FAAMOO    (Facts Are A Matter Of Opinion) 

David

[a2jgrammy]

They needed something 'material' , something they could 'make' and see or know it was where God sat.

They needed something so "Holy" for God, yet be movable to where ever they were going. 

Well, A golden calf would be good for that, no?

What I was wondering was.... Why are two golden statues of Cheruvim OK and a golden calf isn't?
After all they weren't supposed to worship angels, and that is what Chruvim are.

There has to be some logical or at least a spiritual explanation somewhere

David

Well, God didn't tell them to make the golden calf.  They did it on their own.
So, I think when he had them make the ark, it was to show that even the angles worship him as the Cheruvim were large enough to cover the seat with their wings weren't they?
Kinda shows that not only is he the only one on the seat, they also protect him some what too.  Again, this is just my thinking and we all know how that is..

I have another question  about the Exdous24:9-11 , when we're done with this one as I don't want to take this off in another direction.

[Ruth Ann]

I think the difference is, with the golden calf, they were worshiping the golden calf.

With the Cherubim they were worshiping God, not the Cherubim.

And as Kay said, they were directed not to make an idol on their own for themselves.

But God directed this. And it wasn't an idol. It was the magnificent seat where God would BE.

It reminds me how we all would rather worship (Israel too) something not real rather than the Almighty One God and I think it's because of the strong pull of sin. In order to worship God we must turn from sin. In worshiping idols, we allow ourselves to sin...

[Ruth Ann]

Maybe we need to look at Cherubim and what they meant, did in scripture.

[a2jgrammy]

Genesis 3:24
So [God] drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the Garden of Eden the cherubim and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep and guard the way to the tree of life.


This is where they're first mentioned. So they protected what God wanted them to.

[hupo]

Kinda shows that not only is he the only one on the seat, they also protect him some what too.  Again, this is just my thinking and we all know how that is..

God needs protecting? Hmmmm......
I would think that whatever He told Moses to do was for the benefit of His people. God certainly doesn't NEED anything...
Question is, what "benefit" would that be?

I have another question  about the Exdous24:9-11 , when we're done with this one as I don't want to take this off in another direction.

Why don't you open another thread? I'm schizophrenic enough to deal with more than one   

David

[hupo]

Good idea checking out what scripture says about Cherubim, RA

As for Genesis 3:24, I think God was using the Cherubim as tools for His plans.
The plan was to keep Adam and Eve out of the garden.
All through scripture we see God using, things, people and whole nations to punish, discipline or otherwise manifest His plans
Looks like angels (Cherubim) are part of His "tool box"

But getting back to the Seat of mercy with the cherubim on it.
Doesn't it seem strange that God would use statues, of all things, as the holy of holies
That is what I am wondering about.

Now don't get me wrong. I am not doubting God in what He does.
I am just trying to understand it and maybe I will end up with my most common answer ...  "I don't know" 

David

[Ruth Ann]

The cherubim were looking down at the Mercy Seat.

Were they pointing to our dear Savior? The Mercy Seat is the seat of redemption. It's salvation. It's Yeshua.

I note that cherubim is in scripture (the Amplified) 60 times!!!!

I went straight to the NT. It's only there once:

“Above [the ark] and overshadowing the mercy seat were the representations of the cherubim [winged creatures which were the symbols] of glory. We cannot now go into detail about these things.”
(Hebrews 9:5 AMP)

They are 'cherubim of glory'.

I think you're right, Hupo. There is something to the cherubim here. Every ordinance in the Law had meaning and it all pointed to Yeshua in some way.

I'll need to look at the cherubim in those other verses.

Maybe we need to look too, at the annual Day of Atonement?

[olivet]

They needed something 'material' , something they could 'make' and see or know it was where God sat.

They needed something so "Holy" for God, yet be movable to where ever they were going. 

Well, A golden calf would be good for that, no?

What I was wondering was.... Why are two golden statues of Cheruvim OK and a golden calf isn't?
After all they weren't supposed to worship angels, and that is what Chruvim are.

There has to be some logical or at least a spiritual explanation somewhere

David

HUPO

The cherubim guarded the Ark of the Covenant where God spoke to the Israelites, I AM.

The golden calf was to the Egyptain God Moluch, the God of Lust, the Baals, which is idol worship excluding the God of the Israelites, I AM.  It is obvious the exhortation not to make graven images refers to pagan idols

[a2jgrammy]

Kinda shows that not only is he the only one on the seat, they also protect him some what too.  Again, this is just my thinking and we all know how that is..

God needs protecting? Hmmmm......
I would think that whatever He told Moses to do was for the benefit of His people. God certainly doesn't NEED anything...
Question is, what "benefit" would that be?

I have another question  about the Exdous24:9-11 , when we're done with this one as I don't want to take this off in another direction.

Why don't you open another thread? I'm schizophrenic enough to deal with more than one   

David

weeellllllllllllll....protect was a bad choice of words but,  let me see if I can try...try to word it better.

Well, actually, RA did say it better.  But I still think that the wing span was so large it covered all the seat..why?

To make sure of what?

Why do we later on see that they had wheels inside of wheels?
They are all seeing aren't they???

Is this getting clear as mud yet?

[hupo]

It is obvious the exhortation not to make graven images refers to pagan idols[/color][/b]

Are you totally at peace with this? If so, I envy you 
God's conduct is not a problem. My understanding of it seems to be
I question my understanding of this situation.

David

[hupo]

Maybe we need to look too, at the annual Day of Atonement?

I'm not sure I understand....... Would you expand on your idea?

David

[hupo]

weeellllllllllllll....protect was a bad choice of words but,  let me see if I can try...try to word it better.

Ok, I won't hold it against you   

Just found something. Maybe nothing in it but lets see...

Deu 4:23  Take care, lest you forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make a carved image, the form of anything that the LORD your God has forbidden you.
One could take it to mean "Don't make any image that God has forbidden", which could be understood that they could make images that God didn't forbid them, which would be the case in the cherubim on the ark.

David

[a2jgrammy]

Deu 4:23  Take care, lest you forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make a carved image, the form of anything that the LORD your God has forbidden you.
One could take it to mean "Don't make any image that God has forbidden", which could be understood that they could make images that God didn't forbid them, which would be the case in the cherubim on the ark.

David

Now that makes sense to me...God told them to build the ark like he said.

Yeppers, ya got it I think!