Violence escalating in the mideast

[Ruth Ann]

That's interesting, David. Where do you get bacon in Israel?

[hupo]

That's interesting, David. Where do you get bacon in Israel?

There are plenty of non-kosher food places. In fact there is a kibbutz who have a whole food center (Kibbutz Mizra), naturally, with all the non-kosher food you can think of including bacon. The religious authorities are on their case for years now. They are one of the cleanest neatest and most hygienic food mall in the country and they are in-the-face- of the religious groups.

There used to be a great sandwich shop in Zfat of all places!! They were forced to close after several years. Pity, they had great ham sandwiches

David

[Ruth Ann]

Zfat
Had to try to understand why this city having a sandwich shop would be so surprising.

Is it because it is one of the 4 holiest cities in Israel?

Interesting thing here, David. I'm just set back on my heels that there are places in Israel that serve bacon. 

[hupo]

Hi RA ,

Zfat is the city of Cabala. Jewish mysticism. Mostly religious orthodox Jews. Not exactly a place for non-kosher food

I'll tell you why it shouldn't be surprising that there are so many non-kosher places

Since the beginning of the state the religious parties, orthodox mostly, have been a pain in the rear end
They have their religious way of life which is fine
but instead of live and let live they push their views  on everyone else.
they have got themselves in everyone's bad books. So, the non-religious Israeli rebels against them in any way they can
You insist on Kosher?! We'll open non-kosher places to spite you!
and so it goes

David

Added: For some reason orthodox Jews are seen as the real Jew. You have to take into account the holocaust that got many Jews mad with religion and even with God Himself. So much so that there was a turn around of many Jews who said, we will not be like the diaspora Jew. We will not go to the slaughter without a fight! Another philosophy was born that said the "new Jew" will be an "Israeli" first and then a Jew. We will work the land and get back to physical work rather than paper pushing and stuff like that. So there was a rift between the orthodox "diaspora Jew" and the "new Jew". This exists even today, to a point.
Many Israelis went against religion because of the orthodox Jews, no other reason!

David

[Ruth Ann]

The tragedy of the Jewish people is the history of the way he was treated. So may have hated the Jewish people. I have been told and understand the anger at God and religion by the Jewish who lived through the holocaust and the families who have heard of their loved ones being murdered, tortured. Man's inhumanity has been world wide. But the Jew has been on the receiving end more than any other people/culture, I believe.

I can understand as a human, the anger at God and religion. I can understand being spit at byt he Jewish in my town when I give them a tract about Jesus or talk to them about the Messiah. I understand. But I don't. It's so important that they see now. It's so important that they accept their Messiah, now. Time is so short. God's patience will end. 




Do you think there are more secular Jewish people today than before the holocaust?

Your sharing here is so appreciated, David.

[hupo]

I don't believe God's patience will end. He has ultimate patience.
He might decide to do something dramatic but not through lack of patience

Yes, I believe there are many more secular Jews today than before the holocaust
One reason being the holocaust itself and "where was God when we were being slaughtered"
The other reason is the disgust with which people looked at their parents generation for going to slaughter like sheep. They stated very loudly that this will never happen again. This had nothing to do with religion, in fact the peak of this move was the extreme Cahana group with their motto "Never again!!". They became very violent and anti Arab in an extreme way.
The Dr. Goldstone incident where this doctor shot many Muslims in their mosque during prayer was the symbol of everything we don't want to become. But it did show their new militant ways.

The secular Jew was supposedly the "new Jew" that will work the land, live in his own land without depending on anyone else. Unfortunately this feeling was so strong it resulted in God being part of this "anyone else". Yet secular Jews are in many cases, those who see themselves as Jews without the external disguise. Regular cloths, regular ways of living. Non-kosher food was just to spite the orthodox. Many secular Jews refrain from eating non-kosher food. Tradition they would tell you, but there is a deep place inside where one cannot deny being a Jew and so we celebrate all the festivals even the most "religious" ones such as atonement day, with the excuse of doing it for health reasons (fasting for instance). I've been fasting every year since 13 (Bar Mitzva) to this very day and not for religious reasons, I can assure you. There is something that is beyond religion which I cannot explain. This year we are celebrating Passover a a family (we usually have a big Kibbutz Seder) and I am supposed to be leading the Seder (Passover meal and whatever goes with it). I don't feel anything religious about doing this. It is a deep message that has been following us around for thousands of years since the Egypt exodus. It is a very practical message even today. Who doesn't have a pyramid he is carrying around? Who doesn't have a "slave master" of one sort or the other? Who doesn't need to be freed from some "Egypt" or other? Who doesn't need to be saved from slavery?

Passover to me is the most significant "story" to be told and even though the word "preaching" sounds very non-Jewish to me, that is what we do every year at the Passover Seder

So yes, there are many secular Jews but secular does not mean atheist or anti God (agnostic?). It's a way of saying I am a Jew but not the religious type.

David

[Colin2000]

Ah yes David,

"Tomorrow Jerusalem!"

A large section of the Gentiles today do not realise or understand just what those two words mean to a Jew!

I here American Presidents and other Westerns talking of partition and look at people around you David.

How can I make a comparison?

Well it would be to say I will never go out of my front door and look down a main street in my town and not look at the sea again.

In some of the northern English,  salt in the veins even if I might get seasick watching a boat go passed as I stand on the shore.

Jerusalem, The home of The Great King Melchizedek.  Spiritual home of all Jews New or fraying at the edges!  And they expect you David to go away and give it up to lost sheep and black sheep too?

Yours in His Everlovingtenderkindness, in front of The Altar of the Lord in The Holy Place?  The Temple is not a problem to a Christian because it is within the Christians heart, but to a Jew a possible attraction he can not resist "The Holy Place of The Lord!" That could ignite the Middle East me thinks!

Colin. 

[Ruth Ann]

The world denies the Jewish history with Jerusalem and the Land. The Eretz. Because the world denies God.

[hupo]

Colin,

I think RA hit the nail on the head.

The world denies the Jewish history with Jerusalem and the Land. The Eretz. Because the world denies God.

We won't give it up, Colin. We don't have anywhere to go anyway, as a people, that is.
Besides the only way out is into the sea and I haven't seen anyone with a big enough stick to part the Mediterranean.
We do learn to swim at an early age but swimming to Cyprus or further is a bit much, not to mention sharks and jelly fish.
Jerusalem is the physical hub of our spiritual world. True, the temple is in our hearts and not made of huge boulders, but we live on symbols and Jerusalem is such a symbol.

Yes, the temple mount is a center that could ignite not only the middle-east but a holy war with millions of Muslims demanding.....whatever it is they are demanding....

But, we know who is really in control and it isn't the little bearded boy from Iran or the over bearded "who" from South Lebanon (or wherever he is hiding)
It isn't the US, NATO, or the IDF or even the "holy" facebook!

So we can all talk, argue and shout till the cows come home.  God's will is unfolding even as we speak

David

[Ruth Ann]

Isn't Bible prophecy amazing? It unfolds again and again. God gives us the same story over and over. But people still don't see it.

To me the return of the Jewish people to the beautiful land is one of the hugest, most unbelievable miracles! And people still don't see it!!!

The Jews are home!!! I'm waiting for the people of Israel to get back their entire lot! All of the land God promised to them. And us. We'll all be there!!!! 
Someday.

Until then, I marvel at God's will. I'm in awe at all the nations against Israel. Tiny little Israel, the little Satan. And the US is the big Satan.

[olivet]

From 1900 the majority population was Christian Arab, today they are less than 10% due to the Moslems and Extremism

Israel was established in what was, historically, the homeland of the Hebrews. They first established a kingdom there about 1,000 B.C. Subsequently, the land was invaded by the Assyrians, the Babylonians, Egyptians, Persians, Romans and Macedonians under Alexander the Great.

Once Christianity became established, much of the local populace followed that faith until the Muslims invaded in the 7th Century. Under most Muslim rule, Jews and Christians were allowed to live but had to pay exhorbitant taxes but there were times when those who did not convert willingly to Islam were killed. Many Jews left the country at this time, for countries where they were better treated.

Eventually the region became part of the Ottoman Empire (Turkey)

Starting in about 1820 the Zionist movement encouraged Jews of the Diaspora to resettle their ancestral homelands and in 1917 their right to do so received British backing under the Balfour declaration. When Hitler's persecutions began in Germany in the 1930's many German Jews relocated to Israel (then called Palestine) After WW2, when details of Hitler's genocide became well-known, much of the world sympathized with the plight of surviving Jews and encouraged their resettlement in Israel, which, from 1923 had been administered by Great Britain under a mandate from the League of Nations . This ended after WW2 and then the United Nations in 1947 voted to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab regions.

The British formally withdrew in 1948 and the State of Israel was proclaimed. Almost immediately Arab forces from the surrounding states of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon , Jordan and Iraq invaded the new country. However, despite smaller numbers, the Israelis won the war and took additional territory.

In 1949 the United Nations formally recognized Israel as a sovereign nation and member state. At that time, besides the Jewish population, there was a majority of Christians and a minority of Muslims.

Upon Israel's declaration of nationhood, the Muslim population was instructed by their leader, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, not to recognise Israel, even though Israel was quite willing to allow freedom of religion and worship for non-Jews as well as full civil rights.

The Arabs have been trying to destroy Israel ever since, with many of them having written into their constitutions that Israel has no right to exist and that it must be wiped out.

While such attitudes exist, the possibility of peaceful co-existence is impossible. Terrorist activities such as "suicide" bombings have caused many decent people to emigrate to other countries. The Christian population is now about one-tenth of what it was twenty years ago, while the Muslim population has increased prolifically due to a high birth rate.

Prior to the Zionist movement, much of Israel was DESERT, and the labour and skills of the Jewish immigrants has turned that desert into arable land, and has brought prosperity to the region, providing work for Jews and Arabs alike.

As far as making a Jewish homeland somewhere other than the land from which they sprung, where would you suggest?
Would you also suggest that Native Americans should move to uninhabited Pacific Islands or Australian aborigines should make their home in Antarctica?

[hupo]

Yes I keep hear the history being repeated and the main theme being, "there is no hope for peace"
Well, I differ on that point. I do believe peace is achievable.
I know it sounds nuts and wishful thinking at best but I've talked with many Palestinians and the every day person on the street wants exactly what we want. They don't care for all these big ideals their leaders are dumping at them. They want to live and are quite happy living under A Jewish government. In fact the last thing they want is a Palestinian state. Who knows better than Palestinians what kind of leaders they have and what they do for their people?
Besides, just look at Paul, what he was and what he became overnight. Don't you think God can do this with our hate-filled enemies?
Do you really believe it's too much for Him? 

So call me a dreamer. But I do believe peace is possible. Of course it all depends on the master plan and the master planner

David

[olivet]

Palestinian Christians feel safer inside Israel.  So Many Israelis are unaware that the Arab Christians lived amongst the Jews in total peace so noted Mark Twain in his travels through Israel, but they are only a tiny fraction having fled the M uslims, y et many Mu slims only wish to live in peace in Israel

[hupo]

We have a village some 15-20 minutes away from us. About 50-50 Christians-Muslims. We have a couple of families we know and visit every now and then. One family are Christians and the other are Muslims. They are very friendly with each other and with us. From what I understand there is no hard feelings between the two ethnic groups. Their parents are those who fled from Israel during the war of Independence and so lost their land and homes. We discuss this a lot but it never comes to hostile feelings. I'm pretty surprised actually as one of the main issues the Palestinians have with us is they see us as taking over many of their villages and land.

So, the Arab world is not just one lump of evil. In fact they have more disagreements amongst themselves than they do with us. It's just easier to rally round the common little satan. Just look around at what is happening in Arab countries today. Yes I know they try and dump the blame on us for anything going but we can see what is going on. "Brothers", they are not!!!

David

[Ruth Ann]

The Bible said that peace will come to your land. But it won't be a good peace. Do you think real peace will happen before that?

[hupo]

The Bible said that peace will come to your land. But it won't be a good peace. Do you think real peace will happen before that?

No, I don't think we are going to have peace, not in my time at least.
We have been living without peace since the beginning in 1948
I don't think we would know what to do with real peace anyway
I believe we will have a quiet period that suits the interests of all concerned

David

[Ruth Ann]

Quiet would be very close to peace.

There have been quiet periods off and on since the wars.