A Key Belief in Christianity!

[Colin2000]

Hi All,

If Jesus did not rise from the dead on Easter Sunday, we are all lost!?!

Can there be any salvation without the risen LORD?

We can intellectually reason that we have Jesus as an historic figure in the world.  He did the walk and the talk.  For no other account/factual account come witness to anything else other than Creation and Adam exists in history compared with this fact.  That, Jesus Is Risen!"

If I say that I am a Christian and yet do not believe that, "Jesus is the Risen LORD!"  What is the point of going on pretending that I am a Christian when I obviously am not!

The crunch occurs on Easter Sunday Morning does it not!

But the LORD JESUS CHRIST has thrown us a life line for HE has said that if you believe as a child and turn and follow me repenting of your sins you shall be saved does He not?  "Yes, No?"
 
Maybe? Is not acceptable, however, after you have made that first step in faith/belief in your minds eye and by your physical witness is it! 

Is it?

Jesus is LORD and HE has ascended into Heaven after He arose from the tomb or what?

Get that right in your belief first and now or He becomes, not The Cornerstone of us The living Temple bricks/stones in that living-wall now but the stumbling block instead!

The Cornerstone is also the Capstone/Keystone of The Archway of the door way that He made for you to enter His Gates with thanksgiving in your hearts is He not.

If you do not enter in with thanksgiving in your hearts and actually attempt to remove that Keystone from your arch in that living Temple when he opened the door to let you into His Presence you could end up with an awful headache when the arch falls on it!

Do we have the Christian knowledge from Him and His Bible to agree with me here or would someone care to fill in that knowledge here please for us!

Christ is Risen He is Risen indeed and we remember this everytime we stretchout our hands to receive The Bread and The Wine from the Priest ordained to deliver it. 
The Remembrance of The Flesh and Blood of Christ shed for you and I, almost two thousand years ago now but unchanging still today.
 
For He is, Yesterday, Tomorrow, Today also!  Has always been and shall always be Your Living Saviour when you believe!!! .... !

Yours in His Everlovingtenderkindness,

Colin.  A Saved Sinner, "What's your excuse?" 
 

[hupo]

Colin,

I would like to make a point concerning this issue you bring

First let me say,: I am not arguing against Yeshua's resurrection!
I have to admit I do not understand the resurrection, and, it does not play a part in my faith of who Yeshua is.

Can there be any salvation without the risen LORD?

Without the LORD, NO! The "risen" part, I do not know or understand

If I say that I am a Christian and yet do not believe that, "Jesus is the Risen LORD!"  What is the point of going on pretending that I am a Christian when I obviously am not!

Again, I have no problem agreeing with this except for the "Risen" part. What does this mean and why is it of such importance?

But the LORD JESUS CHRIST has thrown us a life line for HE has said that if you believe as a child and turn and follow me repenting of your sins you shall be saved does He not?  "Yes, No?"

Correct me if I am wrong, this quote does not actually talk about a Risen LORD
 

Maybe? Is not acceptable, however, after you have made that first step in faith/belief in your minds eye and by your physical witness is it! 

Acceptable to WHO, Colin?

Jesus is LORD and HE has ascended into Heaven after He arose from the tomb or what?

Well, I don't know, but I believe HE did just that. But again, why is the RISEN bit so important?

Get that right in your belief first and now or He becomes, not The Cornerstone of us The living Temple bricks/stones in that living-wall now but the stumbling block instead!

That is a strong statement, but how do you explain this to someone who doesn't understand.
Or better still, how would you explain this to a child?

If you do not enter in with thanksgiving in your hearts and actually attempt to remove that Keystone from your arch in that living Temple when he opened the door to let you into His Presence you could end up with an awful headache when the arch falls on it!

Are you saying that the "Risen" bit is the Keystone?

Do we have the Christian knowledge from Him and His Bible to agree with me here or would someone care to fill in that knowledge here please for us!

Yes I would like that explained too.

Christ is Risen He is Risen indeed and we remember this everytime we stretchout our hands to receive The Bread and The Wine from the Priest ordained to deliver it. 
The Remembrance of The Flesh and Blood of Christ shed for you and I, almost two thousand years ago now but unchanging still today.

No argument here, but again why is this of such importance?

Let me explain my questioning....
The way I see it, my faith in Yeshua rests on two main themes: As quoted in Mathew 22:37-39
"You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself"

I believe God wanted this for us. This is the basis of it all. Many people Love the Lord and their neighbors without even knowing about the resurrection!
Is it truly the Resurrection first?!

Colin, I am truly not arguing the resurrection itself. I am just questioning what we see as God's priorities.....

David

[Colin2000]

Hi David,

Quite correct in your answer here.  I make it a point never to write an open and closed Original Post for if I did I would spend my time talking to myself, not a bad idea you might think but this leads to you answering yourself and you can get a holiday in the hospital for doing that you know!

It is extremely important that I and others put their opinions and views with hopefully Scriptural references to support answers here perhaps.  Also I do not intend to insult you by talking down to you either, even if that was a possibility any roads!

Salvation starts with Jesus, John.3:16-18 ESV.  You, accepting that belief is the way to The LORD/Foot of the Cross!  And then doing it rather than reasoning it alone, without the belief being activated in your mind, it doesn't work.

Then there is the acceptance of the fact that I/You are a sinner and want to live a higher life with The LORD!

The third element is our respect and love for others.  Our love for others!  Bearing in mind that The LORD JESUS CHRIST did not come to us to change the Torah/Law of GOD no HE came to complete it!  Torah hedged or exposed to view in these last days stands today as it did before The LORD came down to us as the only way back to God's acceptance of us by our obedience to it!

Torah stands today as it did when it was put into The Ark of The Covenant!  Just maybe the punishments today our a little harsh for some but the Law/Moral Law concerning FATHER and Disciple has not changed.  Nor has it changed with respect to our neighbours!

Shema still stands in the Christian's walk with The LORD too!  We Love God First totally and love our neighbour Second!  (Even if we don't like him?)!

A starting point for me anyway!  I am sure there is some amongst us who are probably better qualified than I to answer your questions which I have not forgotten here in this spiel!

A start perhaps.

1.  The LORD Created The Heavens and the earth and Adam too! 

2.  He, Adam, sinned, didn't do what he was told to do!

3.  Jesus came to us and as Messiah/The LORD took on the sacrifice for all of us.
Crucified died and rose again thus washing our sins away.  No good or bad works so we can do it ourselves.  He did it all!

Adam fell from grace in The LORD'S PRESENCE through His disobedience, Jesus is THE LORD'S PRESENCE!  All we have to do is say sorry. Repent in our new belief and trust in HIM/JESUS!

Yours in Christ, David,

Colin. 

[hupo]

Collin   

It is extremely important that I and others put their opinions and views with hopefully Scriptural references to support answers here perhaps.  Also I do not intend to insult you by talking down to you either, even if that was a possibility any roads!

If by "talking down" you mean you who knows more, is telling me something I know less of.... then by all means, talk down to me.
Collin, on the issue of the resurrection I believe you know quite a bit more than me., and I am listening

Salvation starts with Jesus, John.3:16-18 ESV.  You, accepting that belief is the way to The LORD/Foot of the Cross!  And then doing it rather than reasoning it alone, without the belief being activated in your mind, it doesn't work.

Not sure I understood this. Are you saying that reasoning my faith is more important than doing (living) it? No, you couldn't be meaning that....

Then there is the acceptance of the fact that I/You are a sinner and want to live a higher life with The LORD!

Yes 

The third element is our respect and love for others.  Our love for others!  Bearing in mind that The LORD JESUS CHRIST did not come to us to change the Torah/Law of GOD no HE came to complete it!  Torah hedged or exposed to view in these last days stands today as it did before The LORD came down to us as the only way back to God's acceptance of us by our obedience to it!

Precisely my point from the last post (Matthew 22:37-39). That is the whole Torah in a nut shell !

Torah stands today as it did when it was put into The Ark of The Covenant!  Just maybe the punishments today our a little harsh for some but the Law/Moral Law concerning FATHER and Disciple has not changed.  Nor has it changed with respect to our neighbours!

Very true 

Shema still stands in the Christian's walk with The LORD too!  We Love God First totally and love our neighbour Second!  (Even if we don't like him?)!

Well, no one promised us a rose garden......  It's hard, or should I say, impossible, without HIS spirit in our hearts...

A starting point for me anyway!  I am sure there is some amongst us who are probably better qualified than I to answer your questions which I have not forgotten here in this spiel!

You're doing fine colin. The gaps, if any, will hopefully be filled by the knowledgeable around here 

A start perhaps.

1.  The LORD Created The Heavens and the earth and Adam too! 
2.  He, Adam, sinned, didn't do what he was told to do!
3.  Jesus came to us and as Messiah/The LORD took on the sacrifice for all of us.
Crucified died and rose again thus washing our sins away.  No good or bad works so we can do it ourselves.  He did it all!

Adam fell from grace in The LORD'S PRESENCE through His disobedience, Jesus is THE LORD'S PRESENCE!  All we have to do is say sorry. Repent in our new belief and trust in HIM/JESUS!

We seem to have the same view concerning our Messiah

But.....

I'm still wondering as to how the resurrection fits in
Not that he didn't rise from the dead. I believe he did, because it's written in scripture, but consider...
God is forever, always and everywhere. The meaning of God dying is, to my mind, beyond human logic.
Yeshua's death just means (to me) that God is capable of anything including what we conceive as impossible.

Even if I didn't believe in the resurrection, I would still believe that God can raise the dead if He so wishes.
I also see, by observation, that Easter is observed and celebrated by millions. I don't understand it.
I would like to understand it as it has "something" to do with my saviour

I didn't mention this but thank you, colin, for opening this topic

David

P.S. another reason for me wanting to know the importance of Easter is that many of my friends, including HC4U, celebrate it.
There is obviously something I am missing here

[Colin2000]

Hi David,

The most important thing in both our writings here has been shown to me here is that I should witness to what I understand death to mean to me!

As one of the world who once wandered in man's knowledge, darkness, I use to say that death is/happens when everything stops working in a living-being!

Been one of those who considered in my ignorance that I was a machine and when the heart stopped the brain stopped too and parts started to drop off.  A machine like clock type mechanism where the mainspring snaps perhaps!

The LORD has shown me that my way of thinking is wrong and I had to not only think of body-death where the organic machine stops working leading to the Mind still in here controlling these fingers typing also kicks the bucket as well as the body.

Therefore, mind-death also follows body-death!

Not a pretty sight you know but plausible anyway!

What are we left with I would have said something like you said above re I can not see how God can die, it is a mystery!  This is not in my picture or language vocabulary you know!

But we can not have this LORD I need to know you know?  Well just before I started this and asked the question in prayer-thought rather than English He said to me in pictures,
Caption's read something like this,  "I never asked you to believe that I Jesus when I died on the Cross and was put in the tomb that my Spirit died did I!"
What does MY Bible say,  "I went into the place of The dead, you know it as Hell, and I gathered those in that place around me and raised them from the dead.  You know the tombs were opened and people were seen walking around briefly before they returned into heaven before me!"

"But that really does not concern you to much Colin all you need to remember is what is written by my witnesses now with me in the Heavenly Place."

"We are talking about spirit, your spirit, detached from your body carrying your soul/mind you know Colin, the thinking bit!"  Remember what I said in MY Bible, "Don't touch me for I have not ascended into heaven yet?"

"The point is to all this is that there is only one LORD and I am HE, I sit with my Father and Our Presence is everywhere and in Creation too for Creation is part of our being too!"


So David,  "Hang about while I come down and pull myself together.  Jesus is LORD, Father is LORD, and HOLYGHOST is LORD too!"  And all of this LORD is nearly to much to hold onto but I really do thank you for your anointing LORD and appreciate what you have shown me here!"

Hope you can pick out what maybe useful David here anyway and leave the rest,

Colin.

Late PS.  David,  check what I said here with Holy Scripture.  If you can not find it disregard it!  ME INCLUDED!

[hupo]

Colin

First, thank you for your efforts, regardless of whether I understand or not 

What I understand from you is that Yeshua died a physical death but not a spiritual one
That makes sense even to a ignorant beings such as I
It then goes almost without saying that God could, and did, raise Yeshua's body back to life
God is a miracle worker, no doubt!

I agree with you saying that we are not machines (depending on the definition of "machine" of course, but lets pretend we understand that bit)
After all God made us in His image, which I take to mean body & soul, or spirit. So when our body kicks the bucket, our spirit goes back to the general pool (if we are saved of course). The general pool must be the spirit of mankind as a whole. No?
The body can be brought back to life as God has shown.

Yes, God's "death" is a mystery and I must accept, at times, that there are things beyond my perception and ability to understand.
If I don't accept this, I would be a good candidate for the happy home, as you mentioned somewhere.

Hope you can pick out what maybe useful David here anyway and leave the rest,
Late PS.  David,  check what I said here with Holy Scripture.  If you can not find it disregard it!  ME INCLUDED!

Colin, I mentioned once that the forum (for me) is a place where I interact with people. Whatever you say, whether right or wrong is valid for me at least as a mirror. The way I react internally to what people say is something I need to check always. So whatever you have to say is useful, not to be discarded.
As for scripture..... if I cannot find it, it could be because I don't know where or how to look....so I won't be discarding things so easily

Yet at the end of it all I am still wondering about the importance of the resurrection, both in scripture and the way individuals see it
My question is not "did it really happen?", but rather what is the message behind it?


David

[a2jgrammy]

To me David, once the resurrection took place, and people saw and touched Jesus, it was the utilmate proof that Jesus was deity, the son of God.

If he was only a mere human man, he would have known sin, but the bible says he knew no sin...so only God knows no sin, he says he could have called leigons of angels to help him, he didn't, he endured all the gulity, shame , sins placed on him to make a way for us to be once more with God.  We now have fellowship with God through our spirit going to him through the Holy Spirit.

In the OT, the HS didn't stay with them forever, now it does.

If he hasn't of risen, would we know all that we know now about him?

[hupo]

To me David, once the resurrection took place, and people saw and touched Jesus, it was the utilmate proof that Jesus was deity, the son of God.

If he was only a mere human man, he would have known sin, but the bible says he knew no sin...so only God knows no sin, he says he could have called leigons of angels to help him, he didn't, he endured all the gulity, shame , sins placed on him to make a way for us to be once more with God.  We now have fellowship with God through our spirit going to him through the Holy Spirit.

In the OT, the HS didn't stay with them forever, now it does.

If he hasn't of risen, would we know all that we know now about him?

This is the problem between knowing and believing.
If we are to believe in Yeshua then we don't need any proof, be it resurrection or otherwise
If  we do need proof, what does this say about our faith?

In other words, facts are less important than we sometimes make them to be
Facts are definitely not holy, nor should we worship facts. It is all about faith

Heb 11:1  Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
In fact Heb chapter 11 is full of things achieved through faith

Having said all that, I cannot but respect people for using symbolism or traditions or even labels(!) to strengthen their faith
Using various aids to become stronger in faith is not wrong, as long as we don't forget they are only symbols, traditions and labels
After all, we do use the Bible itself to be in contact with God's word. Yet the book itself is not holy, is it?

It is very much like: Money is not evil. The love of money is!
We use money for charity, for helping others, for stopping suffering such as hunger....
It is all about where-we-are-coming-from in our usage of whatever God has provided us with

David

[olivet]

Hupo

Yeshua Himself said Salvation is of the Jews....Salvation furthermore cannot be found in any other name...not Buddha.......not Jevoah Witnesses....not any other religion save that which originates from the Jews, which is Christianity and in particular Catholic at that time.

[Colin2000]

Hi David,

Nothing wrong with that!  I believe there is more to be said on Resurrection though and at Two O'Clock in the morning I really should not be here!

Just had a couple of hours removing an old Office programme and a head banging session on putting it back!

It is working wonderfully now there are parts that in 2005 I didn't know about never mind using them.  Also found my 'WORD' which was the reason for removing and putting back ten disks!  DVD was just a twink in Microsoft's eye when I spent £100 originally on it it seems!

I will set a Forum thread on "Original Sin" off.  Something that I am expert in you know!

Yours in Christ,

Colin.

[hupo]

Hupo

Yeshua Himself said Salvation is of the Jews....Salvation furthermore cannot be found in any other name...not Buddha.......not Jevoah Witnesses....not any other religion save that which originates from the Jews, which is Christianity and in particular Catholic at that time.

Olivet,

I'm not sure what you are responding to in this post
Isn't Salvation for the whole of humanity?

David

[hupo]

Hi Colin,

Removing an old Office program and a head banging session on putting it back... is like a breath of fresh air after trying to understand Resurrection.

2:00 AM?!  You contact the forum in your sleep? 

David

[olivet]

Salvation is for the whole of humanity....but salvation is based upon God's revelation to the Jews, both OT and NT and culminates in the cross and resurrection, where in the attainment of heaven is reached by the work of Yeshua on the cross and His resurrection

[hupo]

Hi Olivet,

You must be pretty relaxed, clear and complete at Easter.
At least, that is what I am reading in your posts. Great place to be 

The resurrection.... my personal stumbling block

God died and yet He brought Himself back to life. How could He do this if He was dead? If He did this, what is the meaning of death? Can Man possibly understand this in a logical way? If I don't understand something, how can I accept it?

The only way to accept God is by faith. Accepting something I don't understand. Accepting answers that say "I don't know!"

Am I there or is it wishful thinking?
Can I overcome the logical barrier?

Just thinking out aloud.......

David

[Ruth Ann]

I probably should have put this in a new thread, but I like to pack things in tightly. Things like my suitcase when I go on a trip...

What do you all believe to be the Key belief in Christianity?

What is the most important belief that you have in your faith that without it, you would be left out as one of God's children. You will have missed the boat...

What is the most important thing to believe?

[hupo]

I know I'm repeating myself but here goes......

Mat 22:37  (ESV) "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"
Mat 22:38  (ESV) This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39  (ESV) And a second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself"

and I am not doing too well with either one....
Come Holy Spirit

David

[Ruth Ann]

But to me, that's the problem.

I can't do those things on my own. I can't love God and I really can't love my neighbor, especially the one that shoots his machine gun off at 3 AM.

So, before we can even think about loving God and loving our neighbor, what do we do? What comes first?

What is our most important belief?

[hupo]

But to me, that's the problem.

I can't do those things on my own. I can't love God and I really can't love my neighbor, especially the one that shoots his machine gun off at 3 AM.

So, before we can even think about loving God and loving our neighbor, what do we do? What comes first?

What is our most important belief?

RA,

You mean to tell me there is a different path we can take?

I mean, God knows very well we can't do this on our own and so He has the Spirit to guide us.
How do we go about that? Is there something we must do?
If we believe in God, only then can we trust Him and love Him. Only then will we allow the Spirit to work in our lives
This is why He told us to believe in Him. We are all called but not everyone responds. Those who do will be shown by the Spirit how to love God and our neighbor

You are absolutely right. I can't exactly "love" anyone shooting missiles at my children's school bus!
I need the Spirit for that or I will end up filled with hatred

David

[Ruth Ann]

I guess I'm getting at my view. It's that the outcome of all God has done is that we love God and love our neighbor.

But to me there is so much more.

The very act of God to do what he did, to die, in an awful, humiliating and torturous way.
And to show us that he wants us with him for ever. Useless little me.

God wants our worship.
He wants us to read his word.
He wants our discipleship and how can we do that if we don't read what he said.
He wants us to stop sinning. And to repent when we do and feel sorry and turn from that sin.
He wants to be glorified.
He wants us to pray to him.
I believe our creation was for his glory.

He has done the perfect to make us right again. And the outcome is to basically love him and our neighbor.

But it seems to me there is so much more.

OH! We need to tell others of his love! And that he wants them to turn to him too.

I'm not preaching to you. But I'm working out in my own mind this 'key belief' thing.

In the end to me it all comes down to Yeshua and what he did for us.
It's thankfulness.
It's humility.
It's...

I'll think on this some more.

[hupo]

RA,

I think we see things the same way using a different language to express it

I agree with everything you wrote in your last post

But God did make us different in that some have good eyesight, some are good at praying, others at dancing, others still at preaching or teaching
This is what the body is all about. The arm and the leg are different in function but are part of the same body

I think this is the only difference, and is a blessed difference at that

Can you imagine someone really being "all ears" !?

David