Humanists or Bible Authority for the Christian/Moral Code!

[Colin2000]

Hi All,

This Forum maybe a trifle small in numbers but we have a wide balanced spread of Christian Traditions here.

On the one hand Roman and on the other Fundamentalist Christian religion.

I have just watched a BBC. program engineered in such a way on a Sunday Morning to water down Scriptural values and authority in favour of the all knowing scientist and philosopher.

Dawkins for example citing Shakespeare and Milton on a par with Isaiah, Moses and Jesus for moral teaching.  The Bible brought down to the gutter of human reason and brought down to a human reason/cultural level of the humanist!

My view was soundly put forward and defended by a Jewess/The Past Bishop of Rochester and a Biblical theologian/Lady but we can forgive her for that!

So I ask the important question here, 

"Do we think our culture is a better one than the one's that existed 2,600 or so years ago when the ancient parts of the Bible were put down in writing?"

"Do we assume that our culture today is more enlightened by human reason than that of Judaism or ancient human reason?"

"Do we listen to Science and make it GOD or do we listen to Holy Scripture with the respect it deserves and trust the Bible truths with the added support of The HOLYGHOST's inspiration!"

I tend to think in threes, you might prefer to post in threes too, (One at a time will do if that is your wish!)?

Yours in Christ,

Colin.

PS. I am sure that most or parts of these three questions have been rehearsed here in the past but just may be we should rewrite those truths found here in the achieves yet again to the Glory of The LORD and The Saving Grace of our GOD and FRIEND JESUS CHRIST The LORD!!! .... !

[hupo]

Hi Colin,

You sure manage to trigger off some good topics 

I need to ask a question in order that I understand where you are at with this.
The question is "what exactly do you mean by culture?"

The reason I ask is that in your post you have set us up with a yes/no situation and what can I say.... to me, life is all colors of the rainbow not excluding human way of life.

So on that note I would say.... our culture today need not clash with the biblical one from 2600 years ago
If our culture takes into account the biblical teachings then there should be no problem and no clash
I guess by your question, you are looking at a situation where bible says one thing and our contemporary culture says another. Such as same sex marriage, for instance?

But lets not forget that in biblical days there was no TV radio video or internet. Does this mean we should abolish all of that (including this forum)? Bible had nothing to say (directly) about cars and guns, atom bombs, medical projects, heart transplants etc.....
Do they clash with the 2600 year old biblical culture?

Human reason (another of your questions) does not have to clash with Judaism or ancient human reason.
Science does not have to clash with believing in God. Creation and evolution do not HAVE to be opposites!

If we can reconcile biblical teachings with today's world, it would be half way to paradise.

The big issue I would say is, our ego, pride and a need to have physical proof, facts and mostly our inability to accept that there are some things that are beyond human reason

OK better stop here. Don't want to overload cyberspace...eh? 

David

[Ruth Ann]

Colin, I have been studying Romans. The Gospel is spelled out in great detail in Romans 3.

God sent his son in his just way to atone for our rebellion.

There was no other way.

In this, we are justified if by faith if we believe in what Jesus' blood did.

I've learned that being justified is not like being pardoned and let out of prison with a rap sheet of your past  crimes.
Justified is the total obliteration of that rap sheet. We no longer have a history of rebellion and sin. We are given the righteousness of God. Our rebellious past NO LONGER EXISTS!!!

So, in relying on ourselves, we always fail. But in looking to God's son for our life and salvation, we are saved, we are righteous in the presence of a righteous God.

Just thought that might fit in here. What a book Paul wrote!

[Ruth Ann]

We are a diverse little group here at the Pond, aren't we?
 

But isn't it wonderful that Jesus has brought us together to share with each other!!!

Where is saundthorp?

[Colin2000]

Hi David,

Yours is very worthy of coming back to later today for another read!

Hi Ruth,

I usually let those who answer an Original Post to leave it a while before telling you what you should be thinking!!!

Romans in my opinion is in fact Paul's Gospel rather than another letter.

When you repent as a believer as you say He wipes the slate clean.  Unlike mankind He doesn't choose to remember the sins confessed.  When He looks into your heart and on your face He sees the image of His Son staring back!

Romans.3:1-31 ESV. has echos of Didache in it, the Primitive Churches Ethic!

Yours in Christ,

Colin.   

[Colin2000]

Hi Colin,

You sure manage to trigger off some good topics 

I need to ask a question in order that I understand where you are at with this.
The question is "what exactly do you mean by culture?"

The reason I ask is that in your post you have set us up with a yes/no situation and what can I say.... to me, life is all colors of the rainbow not excluding human way of life.

So on that note I would say.... our culture today need not clash with the biblical one from 2600 years ago
If our culture takes into account the biblical teachings then there should be no problem and no clash
I guess by your question, you are looking at a situation where bible says one thing and our contemporary culture says another. Such as same sex marriage, for instance?

But lets not forget that in biblical days there was no TV radio video or Internet. Does this mean we should abolish all of that (including this forum)? Bible had nothing to say (directly) about cars and guns, atom bombs, medical projects, heart transplants etc.....
Do they clash with the 2600 year old biblical culture?

Human reason (another of your questions) does not have to clash with Judaism or ancient human reason.
Science does not have to clash with believing in God. Creation and evolution do not HAVE to be opposites!

If we can reconcile biblical teachings with today's world, it would be half way to paradise.

The big issue I would say is, our ego, pride and a need to have physical proof, facts and mostly our inability to accept that there are some things that are beyond human reason

OK better stop here. Don't want to overload cyberspace...eh? 

David

________________________________
Hi David,

I was going to attempt to answer this post in detail but on reread the only thing I would positively need to answer here is the old chestnut forwarded by the Religious Liberal camp who put forward the argument that the ancient culture of the time effects the acceptance of the way we view the Bible passage then with today!

In my opinion this is either a poor excuse used to take our eyes off the main argument/truth found in the passage or to cause confusion to those with a shallow knowledge of something which is really obvious when placed in context.

Another argument is that you who read this passage can not possibly know or understand what the writer was really getting at anyway and you must listen to us, for we know you know!  You find this kind of person isn't really a Christian anyway or they put their faith in man's reason or civil tradition/s!

In the case of Dawkin I hear the complaint that you can not really believe in God because I can prove He doesn't exist anyway and we have science to explain all things through measurement or reason!  I am always waiting for him to advance the Marxist/Communist-Stalin view that religion is the drug/opium of the masses!

_______________________
Culture David that hides what appears perfectly obvious to most of us and rarely effects the Christian view of what he/she has read anyway!

Culture: Cultivation; Educated refinement;A type of civilisation.
[Chambers Compact Dictionary. Ed. A.M.Macdonald.1977.].

'A type of civilisation' seems to fit best here!  So if we have for example a passage of Scripture which says something obvious do we need other than a Bible note on that passage to understand that passage!

Possibly something to explore but others might also want to contribute with their own two pennyworth and why not!

All I myself would add is that usually Scripture is so obvious that anything that could mislead is not to important anyway!

Are people different today from yesterday?  Do we keep The Ten Commandments today or do we not if we are Christians?
Apart from the murderous killing of unborn babies perhaps for example in abortion, yes we do?

Yours in His Everlovingtenderkindness,

Colin.

PS.  Dawkins also said in that TV Program today that a group of people would automatically know and adopt that which is right and wrong without Torah anyway!
Yet another ploy to devalue The LORD's Law of course and I do not believe it either!

[hupo]

Good morning Colin,

It is morning here at least and while the rotating globe of ours is putting spokes in our understanding of the time line, I will still say good morning, knowing that you will sooner or later get to it.
and now, after that totally unnecessary opening I will look at your post.

There will always be those who, for lack of basic knowledge, and/or fear of being wrong, will develop methods of argument which have nothing to do with the truth. When these people tell us they know better than we do, and we buy it, we are developing a world of religious tyrants. Do we need examples? Just look out the window.

Dawkin is one I have never heard of or read so please excuse me for not referring to him or his.

Yes, culture as 'A type of civilisation' seems to fit

You wrote "All I myself would add is that usually Scripture is so obvious that anything that could mislead is not to important anyway!"
and here I cannot put myself in that category as the bible is not obvious to me.

Question and more questions keep floating up from....somewhere... and after quite a battle I realized that God actually wants me to ask questions. Yet "somehow"  The questions are never about doubting God, but rather, doubting my understanding of the moment.
In short English, there is much in scripture that is not obvious to me.
I could even give logical reasons for this:
While God's word is consistant, the translations and interpretations of His word are not! We know of many paradoxes which all stem from human logic but are there for us whether we like it or not. And lets face it: The Bible was originally written in a language (Hebrew, Greek Aramaic....) so that English speaking people get a 2nd hand version of God's word! Even if we can assume it was written with His spirit. How much do you trust this translation?
And lets not get involved in the huge number of denominations each having their own brand of truth as their corner stone.

You ask if people today are different from yesterday.
Well, first of all yes! We are even different today from today. There is a nutty saying that goes: "Before, I was different. Now I'm the same". That to me shows how nutty we human beings are in our way of thinking.
Language is different. Even in my own life time, a "gay" person was someone who was a smiling pleasant happy human being. We all know what "gay" means today!
But more than that. People are different period. True we were created in His image which would logically mean we are all the same. Yet God being a single entity is also a plural entity, defying our logical understanding of God as One. God is a unity of everything. One unity! Of everything!. Doesn't make much human sense, does it?

God also tells us that although created in His image, we have very different jobs to do in the body. I couldn't find the scripture for it but I know it exists.

But back to "people being different".
If today we are different, how much more when there are a few thousand years between us. King Solomon was very wise, yet he didn't know how to press the "ENTER" key that every child today knows! .... Right! there were no computers in those days.
The difference in technology alone could account for looking at scripture in different ways then, and now.

You asked about the 10 commandments. I doubt if even "thou shalt not kill" is understood the same everywhere, but to make life easier lets look at "keeping the Shabbat holy.....". Do we all understand it the same way? Do we all follow it the same way? Here in Israel we have a "cultural civil war" between Ultra Orthodox and non-religious Jews. They would stone me to death for violating the Shabbat, while they violate the "don't kill" commandment!

So Colin, Bible is many  things. OBVIOUS is not one of them, for me. Hence, on going questions

Besides if it was that obvious, what are we doing here in this forum discussing it?

OK, it is memorial day for us and I will go attend my memories of old friends who never made it to this day

David

[Colin2000]

Hi David,

The word that springs to mind is HARMONY!

A rule of reading of the Bible!  We must have a system of harmonisation of the Bible when we read it.

Can I add another word here, CONSISTENCY!

When we read a verse in it's Bible-passage, any inconsistency must be harmonised with the Doctrine dealing with that subject!

And the Third word for me is LANGUAGE!

What language should I read the Bible in???....?

The easy one for me is English!  Problem is that English has good word flow but a broad raft of meanings for similar words!

I like Greek but I do not think I will live long enough to acquire a good large ranged vocabulary?

Hebrew for Old Testament is tempting but give me mathematics and picture language everytime!

English translation is good these days though complicated because of the large number of modern to ancient translations around?!?

I feel comfortable with King James Version even with the six-hundred plus words in it which have word meaning changes since it came into existence here abouts!  All small and not so important I feel I might add!

You will get English Standard Version from me as a revision of King James with additions added and the six-hundred words put right from sources outside the translators grasps for various reasons four hundred years or so ago at the time of translation!

Getting personal here David and those reading this it might do no harm for all here to give their views on which translation and language works best for them/you!

Yours in His Everlovingtenderkindness,

Colin.

PS. Harmony/Consistency/Language a good approach or a restrictive approach?

PPS.  Original language Old Testament, Hebrew, Greek bearing in mind Jesus appearers to quote Greek LXX in our New Testament not The Hebrew Bible!  New Testament is mainly Greek since that is what they used then as the international language.

PPPS.  Then we have the two main Christian authority at the original forming of Church,  The Christian Churches of Jerusalem under James, Jewish perhaps and Roman/Greek speakers in the common hoy ploy of Rome, Peter/Paul!

PPPPS. You haven't heard of Dawkins David, you have been blessed!  Sometimes I hear Olivet here quote an American, "Who?" I find myself saying!

[Ruth Ann]

Colin, I thought there was a link to what I was thinking about Romans and this thread. Maybe that link was very tenuous. Or maybe nonexistent.

As far as any differences between us in our time and people in any other time, there is no difference except in our knowledge base and the 'stuff' we have. I know most think they are better off. And in some ways we are with health care keeping us alive longer though maybe it's not any more compassionate than ages ago.

When I was reading my Bible through right after I returned to Jesus, just 15 years ago, I was reading chronologically and in Genesis. I remember thinking about 'getting through' the reading of all the begets and begats, that it was pretty boring as I recalled. But the Lord blessed my reading of his word. Even in the begats and the lines of people in Genesis, I noticed the names. I have always loved words, names, the same names being repeated in different locales.

I noticed suddenly that babies were named the same names during the same generations. Just like us today. We seem to name our babies the most popular names for a time and then they change...

I think the basic drives of humans are the same today as 6000 years ago. We haven't changed any.

We still need salvation.

And there's no change in man's attempts to make his own gods or to make himself into his own god (as in science and Dawkins). It happened with Israel those many years ago. They had the one true God and decided to try the gods of the people who were living in the land they had conquered. They adopted those gods as if what they had was not enough. THE ONE TRUE GOD WAS NOT ENOUGH! And so it is with us.  Men prefer themselves to humility before God. It's all too true today as it was long ago.

[Colin2000]

Hi Ruth,

Yes there really is a link with posts here and Paul, Paul,Romans.3:1-31 ESV.

The Lord turned to Moses and we got the First Five of The Ten Commandments closely followed by those last five relating to our neighbour!

After my return to the LORD, how many, not enough fingers, fifty years, the first thing that happened was I sat down and read the Bible word for word from the first word in Genesis to the Amen in Revelation.

As a deer goes to the water in thirst!  The Word was the living-water and Jesus stood in front of Judah, Buddha, Allah and every other religious temptation there to draw the new believer away from that pathway to The LORD.

It was easy really I had something the other religions did not have,  The HolyGhost to light the way!  But isn't Jesus wonderful, He Saved me, little old me!
Yes I can walk off the path and fall into the bog!!! .... !

But never mind I confess to him that sin He picks me up and dusts me down and we go on our way together again!

Yours in His Name, His Everlovingtenderkindness never fails,

Colin.

[hupo]

Colin,
You write: When we read a verse in it's Bible-passage, any inconsistency must be harmonised with the Doctrine dealing with that subject!
I don't know why, Colin, but the word "doctrine" sounds much like nails on a blackboard.... I wonder why?

Language is something we need to be practical about reading the Bible.
I guess the language you should use is the one you understand best. But we do have to take into account the limitations of the written or printed word. It cannot convey feelings, emotions and other nuances through tiny symbols of ink.
Point being that no matter what language one reads the bible in, it would not be God's word without the participation of the spirit.
On the other hand, God's Spirit speaks to us even from a rain drop, a butterfly or a twinkle in a child's eye, let alone the Bible.

I have no issue with anyone concentrating on the KJV but when a bible-study participant storms out of the room because I don't see KJV as THE Truth, that is not acceptable (OK, just letting off some steam here  )

You know the game of scrabble. All the bible words and sentences are there, just need to sort them in a specific order. Does this make scrabble holy?

As for the getting personal bit. I personally feel more at home with the Hebrew Bible but also use English for clarification or for English bible studies.


PS. Harmony/Consistency/Language a good approach or a restrictive approach?
Generally speaking I would say it is a good approach although there are points to clarify

PPS.  Original language Old Testament, Hebrew, Greek bearing in mind Jesus appearers to quote Greek LXX in our New Testament not The Hebrew Bible!  New Testament is mainly Greek since that is what they used then as the international language.
I don't know but my preference would be to read the original, if I knew which it was and could understand the lingo.


As for Dawkins, I will let him rest in peace. There are plenty of anti-God people on this planet. No need to search for them, eh?

David

[olivet]

Doctrine came about due to so much heresy.  A good example would be Islam.  There were occult practices as well for the past 2000 yrs.

What about Christian Identity movement which is the Ku Klux Klan.  Without doctrine, the Holy Spirit
would have disappeared and Jesus as well

[Colin2000]

Doctrine came about due to so much heresy.  A good example would be Islam.  There were occult practices as well for the past 2000 yrs.

What about Christian Identity movement which is the Ku Klux Klan.  Without doctrine, the Holy Spirit
would have disappeared and Jesus as well

_________________________________
Hi Olivet,

In the last couple of days I watched and listened to a potted history of Christianity in Russia on TV.  What came through strongly was that no matter what that evil man Stalin did or said with his cohorts of Communists Christianity was so deeply encouched in the Russian mind that nothing could reach and destroy it.

The work of the early Fathers did in deed lay down in The Field of Christian Doctrine  a solid foundation with the aid I believe of The Active HolyGhost Presence in the Russian people!

The ancient doctrine of The Eastern Church founded on James and the Church in Jerusalem spread out with is it the Diaspora.  In the same way The Tribes of Israel lost to history have their traces in the Jewish Communities of/in Russia.  Now these peoples are and have come home to Modern Israel their place of origin with and through their Doctrine.

Now the next persecution may well be coming from humanist/secularism and misguided selfish evil people here in The West.  But I expect The Doctrine of Christianity in The Western World will weather this storm as the Church in The Russia's did in their persecutions!

but now sleep mechanism is kicking in so good night sweet Princess and may His Everlovingtenderkindness blow you a kiss as The HolyGhost passes you by!

Colin.

[a2jgrammy]

Language is something we need to be practical about reading the Bible.
I guess the language you should use is the one you understand best. But we do have to take into account the limitations of the written or printed word. It cannot convey feelings, emotions and other nuances through tiny symbols of ink.
Point being that no matter what language one reads the bible in, it would not be God's word without the participation of the spirit.
On the other hand, God's Spirit speaks to us even from a rain drop, a butterfly or a twinkle in a child's eye, let alone the Bible.
I have no issue with anyone concentrating on the KJV but when a bible-study participant storms out of the room because I don't see KJV as THE Truth, that is not acceptable (OK, just letting off some steam here  )

This is so good I wish I would have said this!

[hupo]

OK, I see that I have "doctrine" in a bad wrapping
I'll do my best to get over that. Meaning: I need to get to the bottom of the word

Grammy... I don't have any copyright over words, so you can say the same thing too 
But jokes aside, I take your words as a compliment

I do believe anything we do without the Spirit, is just that....without the Spirit!

David