Trinity!

[Colin2000]

Hi All,

I apologise in advance for bringing this up yet again before hand!

Can there be a Christianity without TRINITY?

Tampering with TRINITY, is it a denial of the Holy Spirit perhaps!

Salvation, it depends on TRINITY belief perhaps.  Without such belief is there any Salvation/Saving Grace?

What do you reader think?

Yours in Trinity,

Colin.   

[hupo]

Hey Colin,

I would say that we human beings make too much of a fuss over words. We can call it Trinity or Triangular Cheese, it makes no difference as long as we recognize that God is Father, Son and Spirit.
What counts is the essence, not the name

Names are something JWs are a bit fussy about 

David

PS. No need to apologize. It's a good topic to be reminded of 

[Ruth Ann]

We are dealing with the fact the 'Yeshua is God' at ZB.

I'm getting ready to bring up the Trinity in the Old Testament.

David, Colin, do you have any help for us?

[Colin2000]

Hi David,

On the contrary Trinity is a very, very important word and Doctrine in Christianity.  It is a tool that can be used like an acid test to make the judgement whether someone is a Christian or not.

Anyone who does not fit this doctrine is most certainly not a Christian. 

The three elements of Yahweh's Presence is paramount in this tool's use. Father, Son, HolyGhost are equal and recognisable in their own Presences.

An example of this is in the Cult of JW's. who are most certainly not a member of the Christian Family of God because they have tampered with the Trinity!  Jesus is not an Element of God but a good man I believe so it goes in the JW's. mind!

Yours in Christ,

Colin. 

PS.  The Trinity in The Old Testament,  I will have to go and look at Holy Scripture/My Notes and The Church Articles on that one Ruth.  But the acid test still remains in that we can not get to heaven by our good works.  Salvation is therefore rejected as a possibility in The Old Testament/why, because there isn't anybody who has ever been good enough and without sin!

Temple Sacrifice the result!  It puts right what is wrong in man's life and wrong doing! But even in the Sacrifice without Jesus as the Lamb of God the Temple Sacrifice has never been perfect before Jesus has it!

[Colin2000]

Hi Ruth,

For understanding I go first to my Church Articles of Religion.

"There is but one living and true God,
everlasting, without body, parts, or passions;
of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness;
the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible.
And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity;
the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."
[The Book of Common Prayer, 1662/1968, Article No. I. CUP. Cambridge, P.611.]

Of course we will get the stranger arguing that that is a man made doctrine which is not in the Bible!

But of course it is in Genesis/John.1:1-5 ESV. closely followed by The Three Creeds of The Ancient Church,

"I believe in God The Father Almighty maker of Heaven and Earth, etc. ........................!"

If someone is arguing elsewhere from a stand point that the Church is wrong and he is right you could well be on stony ground!

When I put this one down as a complement to Shon's little gem here abouts I did not think I was going to be the one digging!

Back hopefully soon with that which some would say does not exist in the Old Testament!

Yours in Christ,

Colin.

[Colin2000]

Jottings,

There is one God, ....... plurality is impossible (Deut.6:4 ESV; Isa.41:4 ESV; Isa.44:6 ESV; Isa.48:12 ESV).

[The Principles of Theology, W.H.Griffith Thomas, Vine Books, London, 1930/1978, Starters from P14.]

Also this one,
[Section 14 : The Trinity P246.... Systematic Theology, Wayne Grundem, 1994, Zondervan.]

Yours in Christ,

Colin.

PS.  Hope the OT is right my Roman Numerology could be better!

PPS.  The Isa.44:6 ESV. is a real humdinger Ruth, He The LORD/Father is with Jesus The King of Israel and He is the LORD'S redeemer.  So here it might be said that Father recognisers His Son Jesus Christ His Redeemer and holder of the Crown of Israel perhaps!

PPPS.  The LORD-Father, Fathers Son, Jesus Christ, The King of Israel,  and His Redeemer The HolyGhost! Isa.44:6 ESV.

[hupo]

On the contrary Trinity is a very, very important word and Doctrine in Christianity.  It is a tool that can be used like an acid test to make the judgement whether someone is a Christian or not.

Colin,

No contrary stuff here
I maintain the word is not important. It is a fallacy of human thinking to say that words are important.
I do not call our saviour "Jesus", I call him "Yeshua".
I am not a "Christian". I am a "Jew" and a follower and believer in Yeshua
Apart from the verbal mess we make of things, the fact that God is three in a sense and a single entity in another, only adds  fuel to the fire of the "trinity debate"

When I get into verbal debates over words I lean back on what Yeshua said in Mathew (and other places):
Mat 22:37 (ESV) And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 (ESV) This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 (ESV) And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Everything stems from this. What we call or think the "Trinity" is, is irrelevant!

The above verses also tell me that whether a person is Christian or not, is not for me to decide. I do not know people's hearts as God does.
It is not for me to make acid tests or judgements on anyone declaring himself a "Christian". That is God's business. He is the ultimate and only judge on this

It is one of the hardest things for me... keeping myself from judging.... it seems to be built in

David

[Colin2000]

Hi David,

The rule of Trinity is No Thy Enemy!

On the one hand a non-judgemental Christian is a judgemental fool!

Christianity/Messianic Jewishness is:

Matthew.22:37-38 ESV. It is Deuteronomy.6:4-9 ESV. and Isaiah.44:6 ESV.

Jesus did not give us a New Commandment we have already got it in the Old Testament!

Jesus revealed what that Old Commandment really meant. (First five Commandments of the ten!)! 

Jesus is the revelation of God!

Matthew.22:39 ESV. is also not new but a revealed truth interpreting The last five of the Ten Commandments,

Jesus did not come to change The Law/Torah but to reveal and complete it by revealing it's Truth!

Christianity is a revelation about who and what The LORD Trinity GodHead is!

A Branch of Judaism/Christianity!

A Messianic Jew is a Christian, I am afraid David you are stuck with us too!

Yours in His Everlovingtenderkindness,

Colin.   

[hupo]

Colin,

Why do you insist getting into a rut over words?

Would you accept that I call you a "Notzri"?
This is what "Christian" is in Hebrew.
You don't use that word for whatever reason and it takes nothing off your faith in Yeshua, does it?
Why won't you call Jesus "Yeshua" or "Isus" or whatever other language you might use?
It is a matter of convenience. That is ALL!!!

We could have a full fledged debate about names and strangely enough we are pretty close in faith, don't you think?
So words don't mean much when discussing essence. They mean a lot if it's an academic discussion

Do you know how many names God has?
Definitely not one, as JW seem to claim!
Does it make a difference which name you use?
I don't think so unless you are trying to teach someone about God and he only understands Chinese

David

[Ruth Ann]

 
Without words we couldn't have any discussion.
I don't understand, David.

[Colin2000]

Hi David,

I use English, well sort of because I am English!

If we don't use the same definition of a word, an English word, you I am sure, find that we are not yodelling up the same canyon!

Of course at the end of the day I could always scream and shout and stamp my feet but it tends to give the ginger tom from next door a headache you know!

Yours in Christ,

Colin.

PS. In Jesus' time the common language was Greek.  Because perhaps Alexander was bigger than anybody else.  Now it is English because until very recently the English always tended to come out on top and write the history of the time!

Just because the Jews upset the Romans doesn't mean that we should all be using Hebrew, after all the Jews where I perch used to use a cross between German and I don't know what else, Yiddish was it not.

To under stand a religious doctrine or truth we must be speaking from the same hymn sheet, dictionary!  JW.'s don't even come over the horizon when discussing Christianity because of their tampering with Trinity Doctrine!

But isn't Jesus wonderful, after all He was a good Englishman wasn't He,

"Second round and wait for the bell David!"

PPS.  Then of course there are the Americans, they used to be English until George Washington stuck his oar in!  But I don't need an interpreter to talk to them, well only a little bit perhaps!

[hupo]

Without words we couldn't have any discussion.
I don't understand, David.

I wrote: "words don't mean much when discussing essence. They mean a lot if it's an academic discussion"

I'm trying to differentiate between the essence of the Trinity (in this case) and talking about it

What I mean is, I would use the term "Trinity" when discussing it, as we are doing now
But I don't have to use the term in order to believe in it (in the essence of it, that is)

David

[hupo]

Colin,

You know, the English are not the only crazies around 

What lit my fuse was your "Can there be a Christianity without TRINITY?"
and I get all huffed up about the little things in life....well, sometimes.....

I would use these words here because, as you say, we need to be yodelling up the same canyon
but I don't think the words are important. What is important is the essence behind things.

The picture that came up for me when reading this was of the Orthodox Jews who insists on a specific ritual on a daily basis, or you are not considered a Jew!
I find it bordering with idol worship.
Insisting on God being called "Jehovah" and nothing else, insisting one is called a "Christian" or our saviour's name is Jesus and nothing else....
All these are , to me, a picture of really missing the point God is trying to make us see

Once we know that words are just that and no more, then we can use them in discussions

Remember the Jihad the Muslims are out for regarding this Danish guy who "dared" draw a caricature of their prophet!
Doesn't say much for their faith in the prophet. He should be able to fend for himself against such ridiculing, no?

David

[Ruth Ann]

I understand now. Thanks. Sometimes I get lost in a post.

Wonder if our understanding of the Trinity, which I thoroughly believe, though I don't understand, wonder if it's just our way of organizing God in our finite minds so we have some understanding.

Know what I mean?
I mean there's no question that God is 3 but One. And how in the world do we understand that? We do it by explaining the hypostatic Trinity. 3 Persons in One God.

It helps but it's still so inadequate.

All I know is the Father sent the Son and the Son sent the Spirit. And I am safe with my God.

Maybe someday we will understand and it won't be so difficult.

Think we will?

[hupo]

Hey RA,

I would say that not understanding the Trinity brings us into an ever widening group of people who should actually be saying "I don't know" rather than squeezing our brains trying to  understand God. After all what is FAITH all about if not accepting something we can't prove, analyze or explain?

Accepting an "I don't know" answer, brings quite a bit of peace   

David

[a2jgrammy]

Hey RA,

I would say that not understanding the Trinity brings us into an ever widening group of people who should actually be saying "I don't know" rather than squeezing our brains trying to  understand God. After all what is FAITH all about if not accepting something we can't prove, analyze or explain?

Accepting an "I don't know" answer, brings quite a bit of peace   

David

yeppers, I agree

My Father God can do what man can't do
His thougths and ways are wayyyyyyyyyy higher than mans or mine

I can't explain 3 in 1
but I can certainly believe it

Yeshua or Jesus...He knows who I'm talking about and where my heart is

But for the sake of learning...of fellowshipping we need a common something, name, ...something don't we?

[Colin2000]

Hi David,

A thirty and three percenter!  What is all this Jehovah being God's Name business,  has no one mentioned that we English are good sometimes at English but their attempt four hundred years ago at YHWH was pathetic.

Jehovah is as miss spelt as I have just spelt it here.  The LORD'S Name has never been Jehovah except in The King James Translation/Version with a spot of Viking on the 'Y' turning it into a 'J'!

It's Yahweh you surely know like the wind whispering through the crevasse' on the mountain top!  The Presence of The LORD in the storm and the cloud.  'I Am' and shall be now and forever!  Now that is Essence of Father!  Not a name but His Breath raising the wind up Mose's  neckerchief for example.  Essence of His Presence!

The HolyGhost in fact, for didn't He say that He was Spirit and you are to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth!  Now the truth is Trinity!  Jesus is the third part of that Trinity depending on how many fingers you have got and we are to bring the world to Him in The Name of The Father, Son and HolyGhost you know!

Now that should put the wind up the World and all it's evil goings on shouldn't it!!! .... !

Yours in The Creators Great Name, Jesus, Name above all Names and The Saviour of the world!  Comforter and Friend!

Colin.

PS.  Well you can not have it all your own way now can you!

[Ruth Ann]

Did you know that Yeshua was called by 123 different names in scripture?
I think it was 123. It was many.

[olivet]

Jesus, Yeshua was the second person of the Trinity , the mystery of the Triune God lest we confuse Jesus for an angel

[hupo]

Colin,

The name "Jehovah" was never the issue here, it was just an example of idol worshiping a name rather than the essence.
It wasn't even YHWA, mainly because the English language hadn't been hatched yet at the time 

In this here thread I think we all agree as to the essence of the Trinity, even if we don't always use the same label

In fact, it was God who told us we will be in trouble if we try too hard. When we did, back in Babylon, he mixed all languages up so we'll have a hard time understanding things we shouldn't

Gen 11:5 (ESV)  And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built.
Gen 11:6 (ESV) And the LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.
Gen 11:7 (ESV) Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech."
Gen 11:8 (ESV) So the LORD dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city.


and God's will, will always be done and the best we can do is throw labels around... it's called "communication"

David