What is the Diaspora?

[hupo]

We have a study meeting every two weeks and this weeks topic touched something that is, to my eyes, a core issue in our very existence as a people.
I am referring to the Jewish people, naturally and although I know most of you are not Jewish, I thought this could explain a lot about Judaism today and the political storms involved.
I was debating in which part of the forum to put it. We can always move it, I guess.

The diaspora started when the Jews were "kicked out" of the land God had promised them. The biggest group landed in Babylon and was there for around 1000 years. The oral law (MISHNA) was passed down through the generations and was eventually written in what is known as the "Jerusalem TALMUD". The Jewish leaders, the great rabbis, were in conflict over the desire to return to the land and the desire to keep the Jewish nation intact. They wrote what is now known as the "Babylonian TALMUD" which was basically designed to put all the weight of looking after the Jewish people rather than making the land or even Jerusalem, the important issue. In fact they felt that going back to the land will harm the Jews as a people! We see that today in the Ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem and around the world who have sided with Achmedinijad in his determination not to allow Israel to exist.

Sounds crazy, but is it? Those rabbis were not stupid by a long shot. They knew what we know today if we check ourselves, that it is much easier to be a Jew in the diaspora than in Israel.
I mentioned I grew up as an Israeli Jew but was very secular in my upbringing. Jew was just a word in my documents.
This is what the Babylonian rabbis were afraid of. They saw it as important to preserve the people rather than the land, when they clashed. If we take a good look, they do clash!

So the Diaspora is full of Jews who dream of Jerusalem ("Next year in Jerusalem" etc...) but will never actually come here. This is the big conflict of many Jews in the diaspora.

OK... anyone bait for this topic?   

David

[a2jgrammy]

David, can't pretend to know much about this , only what little I've 'read'.

Please explain more, you're helping us learn so much.

 I grew up thinking all Jews are religious, and that the land is soooooo Holy.
Meaning that the land has a way of putting more spirituality of God in you.

Now if that's clear as mud...

[hupo]

Grammy 

What you are saying is pretty clear.
Fact is that not all Jews are religious ("religious" - another word to dissect?). Far from it! The Zionist movement starting about 100 years ago was all for getting back to the land and creating a home for the Jewish people. This would seem a great thing after 2000 years of being "away from home", but strangely enough there were those who thought, and still do, that Zionism is one of the worst things that could happen to Judaism.
The Zionist pioneers proved this by detaching themselves from anything religious. They went as far as calling themselves "Hebrews" rather than "Jews"!
This was all the result of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany and Europe.

We were brought up in this atmosphere of... what can I call it but "Anti-religious" education? For most of my life I lived as a secular Israeli. God was something that belonged to "Them". "Them" meaning the orthodox Jews.
Becoming a sovereign state gave place to religious people becoming religious parties. What a mess this caused! It is still a huge stumbling block to us being a "normal" state.

As strange as it seems, Kibbutzim, who were at the spearhead of the "Anti religious" view, still kept all the festivals, with many of the religious rituals such as marriage, the passover Seder etc. We have God in many of our songs. We read OT scripture at almost any event you can think of. Studying the OT is to this day, compulsory at school!!

Is it surprising that with all this, there are so many questions people are asking?

At the age of 52 I suddenly realized that the Bible is as much mine as the Orthodox Jew. He doesn't own it. God gave it to all, not just a select few.
Religion and secularism are two sides of the same Jewish state. Is it a wonder we are in such a mess?

As for the land being holy. This is being used (or mis-used, I should say) in politics and eventually comes down to land being more important than human life! It is very much in line with throwing stones and endangering people's lives ("Thou shalt not kill") in order to "Keep the Shabbat holy" which is a huge rift between secular and religious Jews.

It is also an oxymoron saying "Secular Jew", isn't it?
Today I label myself as a "Secular Jew". Where by "Secular" I mean "not-religious".
Are you confused?  Join the club! 

David

[Ruth Ann]

You? are a secular Jew???

Well you're not into Judaism? Is that what you mean?



Not to take this down the wrong road (but it might) I received my BAR journal a few weeks ago and in it is a large article about the Diaspora!

I haven't finished reading it but it states  the Diaspora was clearly separated into 2 parts geographically.

The Mediterranean and west, which were Jewish people who did not speak nor read in Hebrew. They used Greek, other languages.

And the second was Israel and east. This was where the rabbis went and these used Hebrew. The article is interesting if I can get time to get back to it!

[hupo]

Well RA, I did say it was a confusion club, didn't I?

Yes, I label myself as a secular Jew.
By this I mean that I do not go for all the religious ceremonies, rituals and any kind of fireworks display.

I am into Judaism, surprisingly enough since I came to realize about Yeshua.
To a religious Jew it means I have converted to Christianity and am no longer A Jew.
To the Antisemitic, I am a Jew, "worthy" for slaughter.
The Hamas see me as a Jew and therefore should be killed.
The Arab world in General see me as an Israeli-Zionist who is a sore a sore thumb in the face of Islam.
To my secular Israeli friends with whom I live, I am a weirdo, that for some strange reason has rejected his Judaism by following Yeshua.

With all that going on I thought it best to label myself the way I see it. So I am a "Secular Jew"
God doesn't give a shake of a lamb's tail about my label. He goes for the heart and accepts me as I am, messy spiritual life and all
So, who should I be listening too?   No, don't bother answering that 

So, like I said, I am into Judaism, especially the practical side of living according to God's requirements.
In order to do that I need to know what those requirements are, right?
This is why I don't go too deeply into the meaning of the meaning of the meaning of the word "meaning" 
I like to take a real life situation and ask myself: what would God want me to do right here and now?
Or take a verse from His Word and see how it manifests itself in my life.
What does it say for me personally?
What is God telling me through his verse?

* * * * * * *

As for the diaspora, I never saw it as split the way that article describes .
Jews have been dispersed amongst the nations for 2000 years. Naturally those living in the UK, lets say, would have a different background and culture than those living in Iran, for instance. In fact the only thing connecting them would be there Judaism in whatever form it was kept for all those years.
Israel is a melting pot for all these cultures. We had a great problem when the Ashkenazi Jews (Mostly Europe) created the state of Israel. The Jews who came to Israel from the Eastern countries were, for many years , looked down upon, as "primitive", backwards, strange etc.... it took years to melt down the differences and the main melting motor was marriage between Ashkenazi and "Sefaradi" Jews. West and East if you wish.
When the "Iron curtain" was lifted there was a Hugh migration from the Russian states and we have all kinds of problems stemming from cultural differences. We also have the Amharic Jews who are different in every way you can think of except their Jewish memories and traditions.

All this causes no end of conflict in our tiny country and to that end I can only say: Thank God we have all these enemies around us!!
But for them, we would be at each others throats at the drop of a pin.

So RA, this is one of the reasons I am not too worried about the hostility around us.

At war time, and we've had a few, you see the beautiful side of ALL the people in this country, regardless of which Diaspora they started out from

David

[Ruth Ann]

I have to say, I never saw it that way: That you are all so divided culturally so it's better to have so many enemies from without. Interesting, David. That actually makes sense. And actually would hold a nation together. I know we were more united when fighting in the Second World War. Since then, we are so divided.

Another interesting thing I've been reading about the diaspora is that the Jewish people west of Israel (the side without the rabbi visitations and the use of the Hebrew language) did not have the oral law. They only celebrated Passover with a sacrificed lamb with songs of praise and a meal that included unleavened bread. In the east, an elaborate meal was constructed around the recitation of a written text, the Haggadah.

Additionally, the early church fathers used only the Old Testament. They didn't use the oral law at all.

Was it at this time, after 70AD that the Jewish rabbis wrote the oral law? I don't know. Seems to me they had a council when they left Jerusalem to decide what to do since the Temple was gone. Was this when the oral tradition was written? Seems so since the Western Jews didn't have it. Although the article said it was because the Western Jews and the church fathers only used Greek and Latin.

The Jews in the West read wrote and spoke Greek, Roman.
The Jews in the East and in Israel spoke, read and wrote Hebrew, Aramaic.

[Colin2000]

Hi David,

You have joined the Christians whether you like it or not!  You say they think you are a weirdo?

Well that's alright then you can not get more weird than a Christian.  In fact Christ likes you that way in my opinion, different, unique and original!

The Jews in Eastern Europe, Russia etc. had in the Nineteenth Century signs and traditions which reflected their part in the Diaspora the ten lost Tribes of Israel and we should not be surprised that they return/ed to Modern Israel bearing the trademarks of The old Tribal Tradition of The Ten Lost Tribes out of Israel and not part of The Two out of Babylon!

Ashkenazi has echos of the spiritual Prince Nasi it's sounding of the name.

Sefaradi, could they be near to The Second Prince, Ab Bin Din perhaps.  (Logic and reason rather than spirituality perhaps?).

Lets have from David to hold forth on what he knows of them.

Then there is Ruth bringing up the Mishnah is it when they wrote the aural tradition down on paper or something like that.  Still counts today in parts, and if and when The New Temple rises between The Dome on the Rock and that large Christian Church marking the other end of The Empty Space in between them, The Holy of Holy's you know will rise from the Tomb!

Then to light another fire, "What happens when they excavate down to the actual space below the modern surface."  Just think The Holy Hole will have a sacred floor and ready made walls!  Just add the roof perhaps!  A Wailing Cube instead of a Wailing Wall!!! .... ?

Yours in His Everlovingtenderkindness,

Colin. 

[hupo]

Ashkenazi has echos of the spiritual Prince Nasi it's sounding of the name.
Sefaradi, could they be near to The Second Prince, Ab Bin Din perhaps.  (Logic and reason rather than spirituality perhaps?).
Lets have from David to hold forth on what he knows of them

Generally speaking the Ashkenazi Jews are the "Western" Jews whereas the Sefaradi Jews are the "Eastern" Jews.
The difference is mainly in culture, very similar to the difference between the "Western" countries and the "Eastern" ones.
The Jewish state of Israel was initiated by Ashkenazi Jews as a response to the Holocaust which took place in Europe, A "Western" area.
Later, "Eastern" Jews came to the country but were considered less educated, "different" etc.... Looking back I would say there was quite a bit of racism going on although everyone was trying to hide it. So over time a feeling of hostility built up between the two cultures. Marriage over several years was the main cause for lowering these feelings, but they are here even today. Many Sefaradi Jews feel inferior and act accordingly.
Israel was established as the Jewish state which means ALL Jews. But as Jews arrived from different cultures, the old wounds opened and this is still going on today. We accept all Jews but it's the Leading religious groups who determine who is actually a Jew.  Inevitably politics got embedded in the whole thing. So Religion and politics came into being as an explosive setup.
The Israeli government is a narrow one. It depends on splinter groups who are at times pretty radical, both on the left and the right of the political map.
So these splinter groups have a bigger clout in political say, than they would have according to their size. This is the reason, for instance, why Netanyahu is allowing new buildings in the areas supposedly to be negotiated on with the Palestinians.
Yes, quite a mess, which will continue for quite a few more years.

Israel is very much connected with the Diaspora. To an extent the diaspora is the source of population growth, which in turn is a must for us to survive as a Jewish state, Rather than an Israeli state where Palestinians could become the majority over time.

David

[Colin2000]

Thank you David,

Most interesting and enlightening!

Yours in Christ,

Colin.

[olivet]

David

A Jew is not one who follows the Talmud, a Jew is one who follows the feasts in the absence of the temple.

Those that follow the Talmud have created a very different religion from Judaism I believe

[hupo]

Olivet,

There is no clear cut definition of who is a Jew
It is and has been an ongoing debate between various splinters of Judaism

David

[Colin2000]

Hi All,

And the largest splinter of the Jews are the Christians! Adopted not by birth!

We all know of course that all Jews have long noses speak Yiddish and are of the Diaspora!

Israel of the Diaspora has  virtually disappeared it seems behind the Iron curtain/Russia?

Judah have travelled their way in The West!

But plastic surgery has not become popular in The West it seems, to expensive perhaps?

Yours in Christ,

Colin.

PS.  Christ being the Red Heifer waved under the noses of the modern Jew Perhaps!

[hupo]

We all know of course that all Jews have long noses speak Yiddish and are of the Diaspora!

You forgot the horns, Colin.... the horns!

David

[Colin2000]

We all know of course that all Jews have long noses speak Yiddish and are of the Diaspora!

You forgot the horns, Colin.... the horns!

David

____________________________
No I haven't David,

The horns belong to us!

Norman Vikings you know?

Some of our lot think the Vikings never wore the horns, but we know different don't we David, once you have got um they never come off they must be glued on or something!

If you have got um so has Christ,  now there is a acid test for sure,

Colin.